I’m so happy I found this, and that you recorded it as a podcast! Usually I have my accessibility settings on to make my phone read substack articles to me out loud 😄
I took so many notes from this; that the sea is about our relationship with the unknown, that sea monsters went from destructive to protective, that these stories help us rehearse courage, that monsters are parts of us we externalise!
I wondered as I read about the fear of contagion influencing vampire lore whether that began once the concept of germs was introduced to the public? That would be around the 1860s and I think Dracula was later than that right?
I'm so glad the podcast format is working! That's exactly why I wanted to offer both written and audio versions.
I started with audio narration in the article itself, but the files were too long, and somehow not always showcased.
To be honest, the podcast had 3 iteration in the span of 4 episodes, so I was a bit worried about reception.
About contagion and vampire lore: you're right that Dracula (1897) came after germ theory was established in the 1860s, but the vampire-disease connections existed centuries before scientific understanding of germs.
People observed death clusters, saw how plague spread through communities, watched corpse decomposition - and created vampire/creature mythology to explain what they witnessed but couldn't scientifically understand. (as humans always do)
So the fear of contagion was there, just expressed through supernatural rather than scientific frameworks.
If you are in any way interested in disease in fiction, I am cowriting a paranormal historical epistolary zombie romance, set during the American Civil War (you can find it here https://www.immortalaffections.com/ ) which deals with a recurring widespread infection and how people live through it and perceive it.
As for Stoker, he was brilliant - he layered BOTH the ancient folkloric disease fears AND the new scientific anxiety about how contagion actually spread. Victorian readers understood bacteria and transmission, so Dracula's methodical spread through London carried a different kind of dread.
(Dracula was my first 'grown up' book, and always a favorite, in case it wasn't clear enough.)
Ok, I will stop here, thank you for giving me the chance to blab over two of my favorite topics. (and confirming to me that people actually listen to the podcast.)
I love that you had such a comprehensive answer ready to go!! I am very expressed by your knowledge about this! Do you know anything about the extent to which germ theory confirmed or contradicted existing popular ideas at the time? I mean was it the kind of paper scientists publish and everyone goes ‘yep that makes sense’? I feel like I have seen or read historical fiction where someone’s resistance to (or ignorance of) the idea of germ theory has been a plot point, but now I’m wondering if that ignorance and resistance was emphasised for the sake of the drama (and I ought to stop learning things from historical fiction).
It’s just so interesting that folklore and fiction were already representing a real thing.
Oop I hit send early! I’ll go check out your story now! I was also going to once again bounce my wildly ignorant ideas off you; I wonder about Stoker using the woods in Transylvania in almost the same way that you describe the sea in the podcast, this big unknown, and this is only the beginning of a late night thought but I wonder what ways Dracula can and can’t be read in the same way as a sea monster? As a manifestation of the way we approach the unknown? I won’t know the text as closely as you, it’s been years since I read it, but now I’m feeling like a reread! I also wonder how much he represents xenophobic perceptions at the time (maybe I’m not having an original idea and you actually already mentioned this?) and (connectedly) fears of foreign illnesses at the time.
First of all, I love wild ideas, and there is no ignorance when there's curiosity. I'll die on that hill.
Also, knowledge begets curiosity, begets theories begets research, begets knowledge. We all live in a constant cycle of ignorance and wisdom, and more ignorance.
Socrate knew what he was talking about when he said:
... I seem, then, in just this little thing to be wiser than this man at any rate, that what I do not know I do not think I know either. [Henry Cary literal translation of 1897]
It was fascinatingly uneven - it absolutely did not get instant scientific consensus.
Many doctors resisted because it contradicted centuries of 'miasma theory' (bad air causes disease), and some hospitals fought handwashing protocols for decades.
Regarding the historical fiction, your instincts are probably accurate - there WAS real resistance, not just dramatic license, and sometimes is sad to see how dumb 'well learned humans' can be, in hindsight. How staunchly someone can defend 'habit' or 'tradition' just because it has 'always been done that way' (and maybe they are scared about becoming obsolete.
The forest and the ocean:
Yes, absolutely, I did not touch on this because it was not the focus of the article, but yes, Stoker uses those forests as an unknown wilderness the same way maritime writers use the ocean. Both are vast, incomprehensible spaces where normal rules don't apply and ancient dangers lurk.
Dracula literally emerges from this primordial landscape to invade 'civilized' London.
Finally, the xenophobia angle (I touched on it briefly, but it deserves more attention).
Dracula embodies late Victorian fears of Eastern European 'contamination' - racial, cultural, AND literal disease. The cholera pandemics of the 1800s often came from the East, so Stoker's readers would have connected foreign = contagion quite viscerally.
____________
1817-1860s: Multiple cholera pandemics swept from India/Eastern Europe into Western Europe
1854: London's famous Broad Street cholera outbreak
1884-1887: The fifth cholera pandemic, fresh in Victorian memory when Stoker wrote
I'd love to hear what you notice about how Stoker layers the wilderness/unknown territory themes. I love when psychological work comes disguised as a horror novel.
Love your wild ideas - keep bouncing them off me anytime!
Yes I know Dracula daily!! I’m so happy it’s on substack because I had subscribed as an email last year but I don’t check my emails 😂 I remember noticing how much the narrator wrote about food, and having the fleeting idea of rewriting it as a food/travel blog haha
Ahhh yes cholera, that’s the one. I had a vague sense of that Victorian panic from literature of the time, but didn’t know the timeline, thank you!
I love what you said about curiosity and ignorance! The way I have been thinking about my own ignorance is that it’s the cradle of my curiosity. Me already knowing things (or thinking I know things) doesn’t lead me to exciting conversations and information - that only happens right at the edge of my knowledge. On that note, I’m really grateful for you taking the time to indulge my curiosity, and delighted at your knowledge base and the way you connect and express ideas!
When you say dangers are ancient and normal rules don’t apply, a bundle of thoughts burst up at the same time for me; you’re unable to use the skills and knowledge of being an adult, so a primordial ancient threat returns you to the helplessness of infancy, but without the protection of family. ‘Everything you know is irrelevant and useless here’ feels like the anxiety of being stripped of all privilege, capitol, resources, immunity, and agency, which feels a lot like the experience of characters I read who are at sea
I’m so happy I found this, and that you recorded it as a podcast! Usually I have my accessibility settings on to make my phone read substack articles to me out loud 😄
I took so many notes from this; that the sea is about our relationship with the unknown, that sea monsters went from destructive to protective, that these stories help us rehearse courage, that monsters are parts of us we externalise!
I wondered as I read about the fear of contagion influencing vampire lore whether that began once the concept of germs was introduced to the public? That would be around the 1860s and I think Dracula was later than that right?
I'm so glad the podcast format is working! That's exactly why I wanted to offer both written and audio versions.
I started with audio narration in the article itself, but the files were too long, and somehow not always showcased.
To be honest, the podcast had 3 iteration in the span of 4 episodes, so I was a bit worried about reception.
About contagion and vampire lore: you're right that Dracula (1897) came after germ theory was established in the 1860s, but the vampire-disease connections existed centuries before scientific understanding of germs.
People observed death clusters, saw how plague spread through communities, watched corpse decomposition - and created vampire/creature mythology to explain what they witnessed but couldn't scientifically understand. (as humans always do)
So the fear of contagion was there, just expressed through supernatural rather than scientific frameworks.
If you are in any way interested in disease in fiction, I am cowriting a paranormal historical epistolary zombie romance, set during the American Civil War (you can find it here https://www.immortalaffections.com/ ) which deals with a recurring widespread infection and how people live through it and perceive it.
As for Stoker, he was brilliant - he layered BOTH the ancient folkloric disease fears AND the new scientific anxiety about how contagion actually spread. Victorian readers understood bacteria and transmission, so Dracula's methodical spread through London carried a different kind of dread.
(Dracula was my first 'grown up' book, and always a favorite, in case it wasn't clear enough.)
Ok, I will stop here, thank you for giving me the chance to blab over two of my favorite topics. (and confirming to me that people actually listen to the podcast.)
I love that you had such a comprehensive answer ready to go!! I am very expressed by your knowledge about this! Do you know anything about the extent to which germ theory confirmed or contradicted existing popular ideas at the time? I mean was it the kind of paper scientists publish and everyone goes ‘yep that makes sense’? I feel like I have seen or read historical fiction where someone’s resistance to (or ignorance of) the idea of germ theory has been a plot point, but now I’m wondering if that ignorance and resistance was emphasised for the sake of the drama (and I ought to stop learning things from historical fiction).
It’s just so interesting that folklore and fiction were already representing a real thing.
Oop I hit send early! I’ll go check out your story now! I was also going to once again bounce my wildly ignorant ideas off you; I wonder about Stoker using the woods in Transylvania in almost the same way that you describe the sea in the podcast, this big unknown, and this is only the beginning of a late night thought but I wonder what ways Dracula can and can’t be read in the same way as a sea monster? As a manifestation of the way we approach the unknown? I won’t know the text as closely as you, it’s been years since I read it, but now I’m feeling like a reread! I also wonder how much he represents xenophobic perceptions at the time (maybe I’m not having an original idea and you actually already mentioned this?) and (connectedly) fears of foreign illnesses at the time.
I will answer in a single message :)
First of all, I love wild ideas, and there is no ignorance when there's curiosity. I'll die on that hill.
Also, knowledge begets curiosity, begets theories begets research, begets knowledge. We all live in a constant cycle of ignorance and wisdom, and more ignorance.
Socrate knew what he was talking about when he said:
____________________________________________________________
... ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰδέναι.
... I seem, then, in just this little thing to be wiser than this man at any rate, that what I do not know I do not think I know either. [Henry Cary literal translation of 1897]
____________________________________________________________________
Anyway, germ theory acceptance:
It was fascinatingly uneven - it absolutely did not get instant scientific consensus.
Many doctors resisted because it contradicted centuries of 'miasma theory' (bad air causes disease), and some hospitals fought handwashing protocols for decades.
Semmelweis (alleged) self-immolation served to convince a lot of physicians though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis
Regarding the historical fiction, your instincts are probably accurate - there WAS real resistance, not just dramatic license, and sometimes is sad to see how dumb 'well learned humans' can be, in hindsight. How staunchly someone can defend 'habit' or 'tradition' just because it has 'always been done that way' (and maybe they are scared about becoming obsolete.
The forest and the ocean:
Yes, absolutely, I did not touch on this because it was not the focus of the article, but yes, Stoker uses those forests as an unknown wilderness the same way maritime writers use the ocean. Both are vast, incomprehensible spaces where normal rules don't apply and ancient dangers lurk.
Dracula literally emerges from this primordial landscape to invade 'civilized' London.
Finally, the xenophobia angle (I touched on it briefly, but it deserves more attention).
Dracula embodies late Victorian fears of Eastern European 'contamination' - racial, cultural, AND literal disease. The cholera pandemics of the 1800s often came from the East, so Stoker's readers would have connected foreign = contagion quite viscerally.
____________
1817-1860s: Multiple cholera pandemics swept from India/Eastern Europe into Western Europe
1854: London's famous Broad Street cholera outbreak
1884-1887: The fifth cholera pandemic, fresh in Victorian memory when Stoker wrote
_____________
Definitely do that reread! And have you seen this? https://draculadaily.substack.com/
I'd love to hear what you notice about how Stoker layers the wilderness/unknown territory themes. I love when psychological work comes disguised as a horror novel.
Love your wild ideas - keep bouncing them off me anytime!
Yes I know Dracula daily!! I’m so happy it’s on substack because I had subscribed as an email last year but I don’t check my emails 😂 I remember noticing how much the narrator wrote about food, and having the fleeting idea of rewriting it as a food/travel blog haha
Ahhh yes cholera, that’s the one. I had a vague sense of that Victorian panic from literature of the time, but didn’t know the timeline, thank you!
I love what you said about curiosity and ignorance! The way I have been thinking about my own ignorance is that it’s the cradle of my curiosity. Me already knowing things (or thinking I know things) doesn’t lead me to exciting conversations and information - that only happens right at the edge of my knowledge. On that note, I’m really grateful for you taking the time to indulge my curiosity, and delighted at your knowledge base and the way you connect and express ideas!
When you say dangers are ancient and normal rules don’t apply, a bundle of thoughts burst up at the same time for me; you’re unable to use the skills and knowledge of being an adult, so a primordial ancient threat returns you to the helplessness of infancy, but without the protection of family. ‘Everything you know is irrelevant and useless here’ feels like the anxiety of being stripped of all privilege, capitol, resources, immunity, and agency, which feels a lot like the experience of characters I read who are at sea